While I have seen one or two anarchists post messages there, if I see a hexbear account, I do pretty much assume they are Leninist-Marxist, or at least very comfortable among LM’s. I don’t spend much time there, though, so perhaps that’s an unfair prejudice.
well yes, such is the nature of co-existing in a left unity space. anyway our anarchists are definitely a minority but they’re about. i can think of at least one prominent mod who is a proud anarchist and i know there are others as well (admittedly this is not the sort of thing i would ordinarily keep track of tbh)
I used to, actually! If more people in general read Anarchist theory, the world would probably be a much better place. That being said, I do prefer Marxism. Thanks for sharing!
Do you have pointers to help me understand what makes you prefer Marxism? I know there’s been a bunch of discourse on it already, and this probably isn’t the spot where we resolve it, but I’m relatively new to leftism and am interested in learning more.
Short(ish) version I have for preferring anarchism to Marxism:
My ultimate end goal is that everyone ascend Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and self actualize.
Self actualization requires freedom, agency, and control over things you care about. Pursuing self actualization is hard, though, and human brains want to be lazy.
I’m anti-capitalist, but a positive of (small-scale) capitalism is that it incentivizes individuals to think, “What should exist, but doesn’t? What can I do that others would like?” and then actually go do it. Our aim should be to encourage those types of actions, but with an incentive structure that doesn’t result in… this.
My concern is that a centralized state will result in folks voluntarily giving up their agency over stuff administered by the state, since it’s easier than feeling ownership of it. Over time, I worry this would would atrophy individuals’ agency and result in a kind of bystander effect, where folks look for the state to do things for them.
Thanks for asking! I’m going to oversimplify, so please, feel free to ask for elaboration!
For starters, I generally agree that values like freedom and agency are important. I personally believe that this isn’t a choice we can make, though, but is a product of our material conditions and resources. The best path to happiness is to improve production and to do so along a cooperative and democratic plan.
The reason I am a Marxist (specifically ML) is because Marx simply makes the most compelling arguments for how to get there, and why, as well as the existence of real Marxist aligned societies we can see in action. His observations like markets naturally centralizing and developing the tools for planning makes sense, we just need to nationalize large firms and key industries, and gradually fold the small firms in as they grow into large firms.
What you describe as a problem may happen, but not likely at a systemic level in a manner that cannot be addressed.
Thanks for responding! I definitely agree on the major points. I’m having trouble making questions, but here are some statements that you should feel free to challenge:
(Focusing on just the US)
My perception is that there’s more than enough productive capacity to meet everyone’s basic needs (food, water, shelter, healthcare), and the reason folks go without is capitalism’s failure to prioritize meeting everyone’s needs. I agree that the simplest solution is to nationalize firms/industries, put them under democratic control, and collectively direct them to work for the good of the people. I’m down with that being priority #1, since people are fuckin’ dying.
We seem very far from having enough power to do that now, and I like anarchism’s prefiguration as a way of building a mass movement that is able to ultimately gain enough influence to make that happen.
I’m also personally fascinated by the emergent properties of a group of people and like viewing human society through the lens of a superorganism. Under that lens, the values a society holds guides each individual’s behaviors, and the aggregate behavior of individuals shape society. It’s certainly not materialist, but it’s why I focused on individual incentives above.
I’m mostly pulling from here for concerns about the state and here (and here) for individuals mutual influence with society.
I am not really wanting to get into sectatianism, as I see Anarchists as good comrades in a common struggle.
For the US, I am actually not so sure that productive capacity is high enough across all sectors and industries to get to 100% public ownership immediately. Much of the US’s wealth comes from Imperialism, production happens overseas except in certain industries.
As for prefiguration, I personally look to the established success in Marxist parties to wage revolution. Anachism being more beautiful doesn’t factor into my analysis. On the other hand, Marxist parties in the US like the Black Panther Party have been successful in garnering support, as PSL is doing now.
Overall, the biggest difference is that Anarchists and Marxists have different analysis of what the State even is, and the definition and means to end it in Marxism makes more sense to me, developing out of the need for one (whithering away) vs trying really hard to make a society directly without the need for one.
This person gets it
I sure do! Goes to show reading Marxist theory is overrated…
Nooooo please read theory… 🫠
I even have an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list if you want somewhere to start…
Thanks! Here’s some theory I hope you will enjoy.
i won’t pretend it’s perfectly done but you know hexbear is a left unity instance that explicitly welcomes anarchists, yeah?
While I have seen one or two anarchists post messages there, if I see a hexbear account, I do pretty much assume they are Leninist-Marxist, or at least very comfortable among LM’s. I don’t spend much time there, though, so perhaps that’s an unfair prejudice.
well yes, such is the nature of co-existing in a left unity space. anyway our anarchists are definitely a minority but they’re about. i can think of at least one prominent mod who is a proud anarchist and i know there are others as well (admittedly this is not the sort of thing i would ordinarily keep track of tbh)
Why are you swapping Lenin and Marx? Nobody calls themselves an LM, I’ve never seen anyone write it that way.
i had a coworker who would do rm -fr and i never trusted him
He just really wanted to remove the fr*nch
Dunno, maybe my brain wants to put L in front of M because of all the news I’m reading about LLMs.
We’ve all been conditioned by the unjustified hierarchy of the alphabetical order.
I used to, actually! If more people in general read Anarchist theory, the world would probably be a much better place. That being said, I do prefer Marxism. Thanks for sharing!
Do you have pointers to help me understand what makes you prefer Marxism? I know there’s been a bunch of discourse on it already, and this probably isn’t the spot where we resolve it, but I’m relatively new to leftism and am interested in learning more.
Short(ish) version I have for preferring anarchism to Marxism:
My ultimate end goal is that everyone ascend Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and self actualize.
Self actualization requires freedom, agency, and control over things you care about. Pursuing self actualization is hard, though, and human brains want to be lazy.
I’m anti-capitalist, but a positive of (small-scale) capitalism is that it incentivizes individuals to think, “What should exist, but doesn’t? What can I do that others would like?” and then actually go do it. Our aim should be to encourage those types of actions, but with an incentive structure that doesn’t result in… this.
My concern is that a centralized state will result in folks voluntarily giving up their agency over stuff administered by the state, since it’s easier than feeling ownership of it. Over time, I worry this would would atrophy individuals’ agency and result in a kind of bystander effect, where folks look for the state to do things for them.
Thanks for asking! I’m going to oversimplify, so please, feel free to ask for elaboration!
For starters, I generally agree that values like freedom and agency are important. I personally believe that this isn’t a choice we can make, though, but is a product of our material conditions and resources. The best path to happiness is to improve production and to do so along a cooperative and democratic plan.
The reason I am a Marxist (specifically ML) is because Marx simply makes the most compelling arguments for how to get there, and why, as well as the existence of real Marxist aligned societies we can see in action. His observations like markets naturally centralizing and developing the tools for planning makes sense, we just need to nationalize large firms and key industries, and gradually fold the small firms in as they grow into large firms.
What you describe as a problem may happen, but not likely at a systemic level in a manner that cannot be addressed.
Thanks for responding! I definitely agree on the major points. I’m having trouble making questions, but here are some statements that you should feel free to challenge:
(Focusing on just the US)
My perception is that there’s more than enough productive capacity to meet everyone’s basic needs (food, water, shelter, healthcare), and the reason folks go without is capitalism’s failure to prioritize meeting everyone’s needs. I agree that the simplest solution is to nationalize firms/industries, put them under democratic control, and collectively direct them to work for the good of the people. I’m down with that being priority #1, since people are fuckin’ dying.
We seem very far from having enough power to do that now, and I like anarchism’s prefiguration as a way of building a mass movement that is able to ultimately gain enough influence to make that happen.
I’m also personally fascinated by the emergent properties of a group of people and like viewing human society through the lens of a superorganism. Under that lens, the values a society holds guides each individual’s behaviors, and the aggregate behavior of individuals shape society. It’s certainly not materialist, but it’s why I focused on individual incentives above.
I’m mostly pulling from here for concerns about the state and here (and here) for individuals mutual influence with society.
I am not really wanting to get into sectatianism, as I see Anarchists as good comrades in a common struggle.
For the US, I am actually not so sure that productive capacity is high enough across all sectors and industries to get to 100% public ownership immediately. Much of the US’s wealth comes from Imperialism, production happens overseas except in certain industries.
As for prefiguration, I personally look to the established success in Marxist parties to wage revolution. Anachism being more beautiful doesn’t factor into my analysis. On the other hand, Marxist parties in the US like the Black Panther Party have been successful in garnering support, as PSL is doing now.
Overall, the biggest difference is that Anarchists and Marxists have different analysis of what the State even is, and the definition and means to end it in Marxism makes more sense to me, developing out of the need for one (whithering away) vs trying really hard to make a society directly without the need for one.
Reading theory is fine. You won’t become a leninist