I promise I’m not “JAQ,” but what counts as “glorifying?” The majority of Marxists worldwide believe the USSR and DPRK to be capable of being considered Socialist. They also believe a great deal of good has been done in these countries, while acknowledging that the standard Western narrative generally mythologizes them to an extent. At the same time, most Marxists can acknowledge the real problems faced intenally and externally in these countries, and that not everything they do is correct or right. Such a wonderland does not and cannot exist, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support Leftidt movemebts. The Black Panther Party, for example, supported the DPRK and directly stated the influence of the Juche Idea on how they themselves built up their community and party through self-reliance.
If the majority of Marxists, ie the majority of Communists (not counting Anarcho-Communists, of course), have similar views on “AES” states, wouldn’t that make “Tankie” just a negative term for Communists?
Personally, I think it’s convenient to think of oneself as not anti-Communist, while opposing every country that has tried to build communism, such as the former Soviet Union, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, etc. As a Marxist-Leninist, I find the people most genuinely critical of AES states, and not dogmatically dismissive of, are fellow Marxists. It takes first correct understanding to begin to see what truly went right and what went wrong, after all.
Just my thoughts on the subject. You probably won’t agree.
I’ve only ever seen you participate in good faith,
I mean people who think everything was fine and dandy there, and they had no problems except for the u.s meddling (which was a real problem).
Don’t get me wrong, there was - and is - a lot of propaganda about it.
I’m not dismissive (hopefully!) of them, the ussr was a big step up from the tsar ruled russia, they have achieved a lot of good things, but there are some people who try to pretend nothing wrong happened.
I think that the whole china thing (tianamen square, the ughurs etc) is also very divisive.
One problem I have with a lot of former (and current) communist states is how they forgo democracy, or get dictators. I think democracy is one of the most fundamentally important things in a society.
First off, thanks for the compliment! I think the biggest issue on the Fediverse is talking past each other, and the game of telephone defederation can create.
Maybe this is just a difference caused by being a Hexbear user myself, but outside of memes, the idea that “nothing went wrong” in the USSR or (insert AES state here) would actually be pretty unpopular. When Communists engage with others online, we are generally far more defensive when engaging with those hostile to Communism outright, as Red Scare brainworms dominate the Western internet entirely. When speaking among comrades, however, you’ll find the nuance you say is usually lacked.
For example, the other day someone pulled up the ludicrous “100 million deaths” figure, to which I responded to why that number exists and why it’s a myth. I’m not going to engage in the various issues with, say, Lysenkoism, or the problems with trying to maintain planning by hand in a computer age, or with the liberal reforms that began to doom the Socialist economy of the Soviet Union, unless I am doing so with someone already knowledgeable about the subject.
As for democracy, I do think you should read up on why Socialist countries opt for the democratic models they do. When western countries call, say, Cuba a “dictatorship,” it’s because it has one main party, but that is only part of the picture. The other parts they hide are the broad support for the Cuban system, and the actual democratic control the people have over how things are run. A much greater portion of Chinese citizens believe they have a democratic impact on policy than USian citizens, despite having only one main party (there are 8 other parties in the PRC, but they cooperate with the CPC, rather than compete).
I recommend reading Soviet Democracy if you’re down to read, or just looking in this infographic:
When speaking among comrades, however, you’ll find the nuance you say is usually lacked.
Go to the hexbear news thread and read xiaohongshu break down problems with Chinas economy, stuff the tankie-haters would have you believe would get xiaohongshu banned.
I truly value xiaohongshu’s doomerism, because it’s always well-thought out and high-effort, from a leftist POV. I don’t always agree, but it helps me keep a healthy level of realism.
I will say though, the u.s is a bad example when talking the direct impacts a person has on their government, in my opinion.
For example, in Ireland there is often coalitions between parties.
As well as that, you vote for whatever representatives you want in your area, then those representatives nominate and vote for whichever candidate they want to be the taoiseach (prime minister).
The graph kinda reminded me of it.
Fair enough about the US, I use it because it’s the closest in economic size and presense on the global stage, and is often seen as “the Capitalist state.” Ireland does sound better than the US, democratically. China has a similar process, though not the same as the Soviet Union, as the CPC has 96 million members and China in general 1.4 billion people, so it needs its own systems.
I can get disliking tankies (not communists, there’s a distinction), but you’re being a bit obnoxious. Just block silently and move on.
In practical terms, “tankie” just means Communist, but coming from someone who is anti-Communist. It’s kinda like “woke.”
I wouldn’t consider myself anti-communist by any means. I do use the term when people glorify north korea and the ussr though.
I promise I’m not “JAQ,” but what counts as “glorifying?” The majority of Marxists worldwide believe the USSR and DPRK to be capable of being considered Socialist. They also believe a great deal of good has been done in these countries, while acknowledging that the standard Western narrative generally mythologizes them to an extent. At the same time, most Marxists can acknowledge the real problems faced intenally and externally in these countries, and that not everything they do is correct or right. Such a wonderland does not and cannot exist, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support Leftidt movemebts. The Black Panther Party, for example, supported the DPRK and directly stated the influence of the Juche Idea on how they themselves built up their community and party through self-reliance.
If the majority of Marxists, ie the majority of Communists (not counting Anarcho-Communists, of course), have similar views on “AES” states, wouldn’t that make “Tankie” just a negative term for Communists?
Personally, I think it’s convenient to think of oneself as not anti-Communist, while opposing every country that has tried to build communism, such as the former Soviet Union, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, etc. As a Marxist-Leninist, I find the people most genuinely critical of AES states, and not dogmatically dismissive of, are fellow Marxists. It takes first correct understanding to begin to see what truly went right and what went wrong, after all.
Just my thoughts on the subject. You probably won’t agree.
I’ve only ever seen you participate in good faith,
I mean people who think everything was fine and dandy there, and they had no problems except for the u.s meddling (which was a real problem).
Don’t get me wrong, there was - and is - a lot of propaganda about it.
I’m not dismissive (hopefully!) of them, the ussr was a big step up from the tsar ruled russia, they have achieved a lot of good things, but there are some people who try to pretend nothing wrong happened.
I think that the whole china thing (tianamen square, the ughurs etc) is also very divisive.
One problem I have with a lot of former (and current) communist states is how they forgo democracy, or get dictators. I think democracy is one of the most fundamentally important things in a society.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
First off, thanks for the compliment! I think the biggest issue on the Fediverse is talking past each other, and the game of telephone defederation can create.
Maybe this is just a difference caused by being a Hexbear user myself, but outside of memes, the idea that “nothing went wrong” in the USSR or (insert AES state here) would actually be pretty unpopular. When Communists engage with others online, we are generally far more defensive when engaging with those hostile to Communism outright, as Red Scare brainworms dominate the Western internet entirely. When speaking among comrades, however, you’ll find the nuance you say is usually lacked.
For example, the other day someone pulled up the ludicrous “100 million deaths” figure, to which I responded to why that number exists and why it’s a myth. I’m not going to engage in the various issues with, say, Lysenkoism, or the problems with trying to maintain planning by hand in a computer age, or with the liberal reforms that began to doom the Socialist economy of the Soviet Union, unless I am doing so with someone already knowledgeable about the subject.
As for democracy, I do think you should read up on why Socialist countries opt for the democratic models they do. When western countries call, say, Cuba a “dictatorship,” it’s because it has one main party, but that is only part of the picture. The other parts they hide are the broad support for the Cuban system, and the actual democratic control the people have over how things are run. A much greater portion of Chinese citizens believe they have a democratic impact on policy than USian citizens, despite having only one main party (there are 8 other parties in the PRC, but they cooperate with the CPC, rather than compete).
I recommend reading Soviet Democracy if you’re down to read, or just looking in this infographic:
Thanks for your time!
Go to the hexbear news thread and read xiaohongshu break down problems with Chinas economy, stuff the tankie-haters would have you believe would get xiaohongshu banned.
I truly value xiaohongshu’s doomerism, because it’s always well-thought out and high-effort, from a leftist POV. I don’t always agree, but it helps me keep a healthy level of realism.
That sounds interesting, I’ll take a look.
I will say though, the u.s is a bad example when talking the direct impacts a person has on their government, in my opinion.
For example, in Ireland there is often coalitions between parties.
As well as that, you vote for whatever representatives you want in your area, then those representatives nominate and vote for whichever candidate they want to be the taoiseach (prime minister).
The graph kinda reminded me of it.
Fair enough about the US, I use it because it’s the closest in economic size and presense on the global stage, and is often seen as “the Capitalist state.” Ireland does sound better than the US, democratically. China has a similar process, though not the same as the Soviet Union, as the CPC has 96 million members and China in general 1.4 billion people, so it needs its own systems.