I wont use it if it has an extreme form of DEI in it. Im somewhat in the middle with this DEI Stuff, idk so much about it yet to really form my opinion.
There are no extreme forms of DEI because DEI is just making sure that everyone is able to be included and to discourage discrimination.
An all black college for example is not DEI. It is trying to counter systemic racism by providing opportunities to those that have historically and currently been excluded, so the goals are the same but it isn’t DEI.
I disagree, there are definitely extreme forms of DEI, namely when we’re talking about forced equal representation. Pools of potential employees are rarely perfect representations of society, for many different reasons. So if a company forcefully tries to have a perfect representation of society, that means they will discriminate against certain groups and hire less capable workers on average.
That opinion assumes the people who weren’t being hired due to discrimination are less capable. Which is the kind of thing people use to justify discrimination.
Let me explain it with a theoretical example: you are a company and the field you’re hiring in consists of 90 women and 10 men. You need 10 people for the job and want the most capable. Statistically that would mean hiring 9 women and 1 man on average, giving you the 10% most capable employees. But since you want equality you want it 50/50, so you hire 5 women and 5 men. That means that for the women you hired the 5,6% most capable employees, but for the men you hire the 50% most capable employees. So you get less capable employees this way, assuming both groups are equally likely to be capable.
Let me stop you here: You seem to lack the pre-requisite knowledge of laws, and the understanding of what HR departments and DEI departments do.
What you’re describing is absolutely, totally, illegal and has been since the 1970s. This was decided in Griggs v Duke Power Co. The phrase you can look up is “Disparate impact” and in particular the “adverse impact” and tests.
DEI has big problems, but most of them stem from businesses just slapping in a 60 minute micro aggression course from a third party service and calling it done
For example, a purposeless unconscious bias training required for all employees is almost certainly less effective than an unconscious bias training deployed specifically for decision-makers like hiring managers or supervisors, to increase their familiarity with newly implemented bias-interrupting practices like hiring panels and scoring rubrics after an audit found evidence of bias in hiring and promotion processes.
Are all of the people qualified? Then everything past that is likely to be subjective as to what ‘more capable means’.
If so, odds are pretty high that what the hiring person thinks are more capable are just people that fut their preconceived notions of who is likely to be more qualified. Generally that is tall, white men.
Not to mention there is a lot more to being effective workers, like communication and collaboration. A more diverse workforce tends to increase communication and collaboration when being diverse and inclusive are goals.
Not to mention people can grow as they get experience. So even if they aren’t the most capable at the time of hiring, they might be in a few years. And if people don’t get any experience, they will always have a disadvantage against even less capable people who have more experience. It is a feedback loop that makes even a small amount of discrimination have a mush larger effect.
There are no extreme forms of DEI because DEI is just making sure that everyone is able to be included and to discourage discrimination.
An all black college for example is not DEI. It is trying to counter systemic racism by providing opportunities to those that have historically and currently been excluded, so the goals are the same but it isn’t DEI.
So, there’s no countries of majority black people on Earth? Don’t you mean a majority black college in the USA? But wouldn’t that majority by definition exclude other minorities like east asians, south asians, native americans, Hispanics et al? And what is a white person? A person from the south of Spain is indistinguishable from a person from North Africa, yet both originate from completely different backgrounds and neither would be white passing in the US. What about poor white people, do JayZ’s children deserve a pass because they are black but the children of a Ukrainian migrant do not because they are technically white even if they are from a refugee family with little financial means?
What you said is myopic, nonsensical and a perfect example of an oxymoron, I’m going to go on a limb and guess you’re US american. Congrats, it’s regardation like the one you spouted that got Trump elected.
All black colleges exist because blacks were excluded from existing colleges. Not because there were all white colleges, but because they were excluded from the vast majority of colleges.
They have remain because of ongoing racism at other colleges. A group that is discriminated against by society as a whole limiting who can join their spaces is not discrimination.
im euro and i dont discriminate against any people. i dont care what colour you have as long as you arent criminal or bad to me and others.
bad people are everywhere. there are many white or asian people that dont want or are to untalented for college.
i would only let people pass classes in college if they pass with a pass grade. shoving anyone trough because of colour is not good.
Grades have not depended on race in mainstream or HBCUs. Admissions however have not ever been equal, and DEI initiatives were created with the idea of counterbalancing that - or in lieu of reparations, which would be a real attempt to correct the inherent issue.
more asians than whites are admitted, i read something like that somewhere. so should whites then be shoved into a university or wherever (i dont remember)?
that would be discrimination in favour of whites then.
lol i have many real ukrainian refugees here in my land and they are never in the news because of murder or stealing.
we have a black pastor since a few years and everybody including me likes him and thats in a little tiny village!
i just hate murderers abd stealers. they come in any colour.
idk, must be a little one that isnt yet big enough to be in the news or whose product is not good enough so i didnt yet use or buy it. these small firms are often extreme-non-DEI/extreme-DEI.
but as i have written, idk too much about this stuff. its not in the news in europa.
Based on the way you’re talking I don’t think you understand what DEI actually is, and yet, you remain committed to saying how much of it you want. Having a center opinion isn’t a virtue; if you don’t know enough about the subject, you should have no opinion, not advocate for a central one by default. Didn’t downvote but I see why people are.
I don’t see the equivalency as valid though. I am white, but that’s not something I’d ever be proud of in itself because it’s literally just pigmentation alone. I’m so ethnically mixed and Americanised that I can’t really claim the English, Croat, or Scottish heritage I have got - despite being a British citizen living in England who eats haggis with enough frequency to disturb my family. I very much appreciate my heritage but it has no hold on me as an in-group identity. They don’t claim me, nobody needs to.
If I was to take the stance of being “anti-DEI”, which lets face it, it’s just white supremacism with updated buzzwords, I’d be taking the stance that my literal mere pigmentation is an equally valid source of pride as a black woman’s history of oppression, or a trans man’s struggle to be treated as their true self.
I’ve struggled, but I haven’t struggled from being white or cisgender. I’ve walked alone at night wherever I liked ever since I was barely a teen with hardly so much as a glance over my shoulder. Gone to other countries where I barely speak fifty words in the local tongue with nary a care. I’ve spent my whole life being given credit as the person I present as. I’ve been unafraid to take risks, and it gives me hell to know others haven’t been able to enjoy those things in life. It’s not even a huge amount of empathy we’re talking about here.
So that’s my story. Anyone who reads this and thinks I’m a self hating white is probably in need of a smack. I’m fine with myself. I want others to have a taste of being okay once in a while like I have, is all.
As for the downvotes I don’t know I’m just talking here. I can’t speak for them. In America, this issue is often played to ‘both sides’ in bad faith, and far right ideas are given more than equal time in ways that have normalised fascist tendencies for decades, leading to the current situation (more or less a coup in progress). It’s a difficult needle you’re trying to thread at the best of times, and right now an “even handed” stance feels a lot like cities trying to solve traffic by adding “just one more lane” to their already massive highways.
It’s a different situation than elsewhere, but it’s important to try to understand because these problems will, I regret, continue to spread. America is still a cultural exporter for now, and that includes the insane situation we’ve come to.
Imagine if, in your country, there was a civil war started by racists over 150 years ago and even though they lost their leaders were allowed to live and hold office, and they were given plenty of room to tell a fake version of events, erect monuments, and fly the flag of rebellion.
That is only a thin slice of one part of what’s been going on in the states. If ever your country deals with traitors, I hope you see them hanged. Letting them live will kill your country sooner or later.
I wont use it if it has an extreme form of DEI in it. Im somewhat in the middle with this DEI Stuff, idk so much about it yet to really form my opinion.
There are no extreme forms of DEI because DEI is just making sure that everyone is able to be included and to discourage discrimination.
An all black college for example is not DEI. It is trying to counter systemic racism by providing opportunities to those that have historically and currently been excluded, so the goals are the same but it isn’t DEI.
I disagree, there are definitely extreme forms of DEI, namely when we’re talking about forced equal representation. Pools of potential employees are rarely perfect representations of society, for many different reasons. So if a company forcefully tries to have a perfect representation of society, that means they will discriminate against certain groups and hire less capable workers on average.
That opinion assumes the people who weren’t being hired due to discrimination are less capable. Which is the kind of thing people use to justify discrimination.
Let me explain it with a theoretical example: you are a company and the field you’re hiring in consists of 90 women and 10 men. You need 10 people for the job and want the most capable. Statistically that would mean hiring 9 women and 1 man on average, giving you the 10% most capable employees. But since you want equality you want it 50/50, so you hire 5 women and 5 men. That means that for the women you hired the 5,6% most capable employees, but for the men you hire the 50% most capable employees. So you get less capable employees this way, assuming both groups are equally likely to be capable.
Let me stop you here: You seem to lack the pre-requisite knowledge of laws, and the understanding of what HR departments and DEI departments do.
What you’re describing is absolutely, totally, illegal and has been since the 1970s. This was decided in Griggs v Duke Power Co. The phrase you can look up is “Disparate impact” and in particular the “adverse impact” and tests.
DEI has big problems, but most of them stem from businesses just slapping in a 60 minute micro aggression course from a third party service and calling it done
https://hbr.org/2022/12/the-failure-of-the-dei-industrial-complex
What DEI is supposed to do is stuff like:
Are all of the people qualified? Then everything past that is likely to be subjective as to what ‘more capable means’.
If so, odds are pretty high that what the hiring person thinks are more capable are just people that fut their preconceived notions of who is likely to be more qualified. Generally that is tall, white men.
Not to mention there is a lot more to being effective workers, like communication and collaboration. A more diverse workforce tends to increase communication and collaboration when being diverse and inclusive are goals.
Not to mention people can grow as they get experience. So even if they aren’t the most capable at the time of hiring, they might be in a few years. And if people don’t get any experience, they will always have a disadvantage against even less capable people who have more experience. It is a feedback loop that makes even a small amount of discrimination have a mush larger effect.
So, there’s no countries of majority black people on Earth? Don’t you mean a majority black college in the USA? But wouldn’t that majority by definition exclude other minorities like east asians, south asians, native americans, Hispanics et al? And what is a white person? A person from the south of Spain is indistinguishable from a person from North Africa, yet both originate from completely different backgrounds and neither would be white passing in the US. What about poor white people, do JayZ’s children deserve a pass because they are black but the children of a Ukrainian migrant do not because they are technically white even if they are from a refugee family with little financial means?
What you said is myopic, nonsensical and a perfect example of an oxymoron, I’m going to go on a limb and guess you’re US american. Congrats, it’s regardation like the one you spouted that got Trump elected.
What the fuck is context anyway?
an all black college is discrimination of other people imo.
No, it’s not. And even if you want to call that a discrimination, it’s a positive one.
All black colleges exist because blacks were excluded from existing colleges. Not because there were all white colleges, but because they were excluded from the vast majority of colleges.
They have remain because of ongoing racism at other colleges. A group that is discriminated against by society as a whole limiting who can join their spaces is not discrimination.
im euro and i dont discriminate against any people. i dont care what colour you have as long as you arent criminal or bad to me and others. bad people are everywhere. there are many white or asian people that dont want or are to untalented for college. i would only let people pass classes in college if they pass with a pass grade. shoving anyone trough because of colour is not good.
Grades have not depended on race in mainstream or HBCUs. Admissions however have not ever been equal, and DEI initiatives were created with the idea of counterbalancing that - or in lieu of reparations, which would be a real attempt to correct the inherent issue.
more asians than whites are admitted, i read something like that somewhere. so should whites then be shoved into a university or wherever (i dont remember)? that would be discrimination in favour of whites then.
per capita?
i think so. east asians are on average better in school than whites and blacks.
Europeans pretending they don’t know about discrimination is always so funny.
lol i have many real ukrainian refugees here in my land and they are never in the news because of murder or stealing. we have a black pastor since a few years and everybody including me likes him and thats in a little tiny village!
i just hate murderers abd stealers. they come in any colour.
What do you think about Roma?
from my own personal exp untainted by news, they steal and beg.
I’ll bite. What’s a company with extreme DEI?
idk, must be a little one that isnt yet big enough to be in the news or whose product is not good enough so i didnt yet use or buy it. these small firms are often extreme-non-DEI/extreme-DEI. but as i have written, idk too much about this stuff. its not in the news in europa.
Okeh. Slightly weird to have an opinion with no examples. Propaganda, much?
proud boys is a weird thing, afaik they are extreme-non-DEI so i dont like them.
a bit DEI or anti-DEI is alright.
EDIT: explain the downvotes. am i to moderate for both farleft and farright??
Based on the way you’re talking I don’t think you understand what DEI actually is, and yet, you remain committed to saying how much of it you want. Having a center opinion isn’t a virtue; if you don’t know enough about the subject, you should have no opinion, not advocate for a central one by default. Didn’t downvote but I see why people are.
I don’t see the equivalency as valid though. I am white, but that’s not something I’d ever be proud of in itself because it’s literally just pigmentation alone. I’m so ethnically mixed and Americanised that I can’t really claim the English, Croat, or Scottish heritage I have got - despite being a British citizen living in England who eats haggis with enough frequency to disturb my family. I very much appreciate my heritage but it has no hold on me as an in-group identity. They don’t claim me, nobody needs to.
If I was to take the stance of being “anti-DEI”, which lets face it, it’s just white supremacism with updated buzzwords, I’d be taking the stance that my literal mere pigmentation is an equally valid source of pride as a black woman’s history of oppression, or a trans man’s struggle to be treated as their true self.
I’ve struggled, but I haven’t struggled from being white or cisgender. I’ve walked alone at night wherever I liked ever since I was barely a teen with hardly so much as a glance over my shoulder. Gone to other countries where I barely speak fifty words in the local tongue with nary a care. I’ve spent my whole life being given credit as the person I present as. I’ve been unafraid to take risks, and it gives me hell to know others haven’t been able to enjoy those things in life. It’s not even a huge amount of empathy we’re talking about here.
So that’s my story. Anyone who reads this and thinks I’m a self hating white is probably in need of a smack. I’m fine with myself. I want others to have a taste of being okay once in a while like I have, is all.
As for the downvotes I don’t know I’m just talking here. I can’t speak for them. In America, this issue is often played to ‘both sides’ in bad faith, and far right ideas are given more than equal time in ways that have normalised fascist tendencies for decades, leading to the current situation (more or less a coup in progress). It’s a difficult needle you’re trying to thread at the best of times, and right now an “even handed” stance feels a lot like cities trying to solve traffic by adding “just one more lane” to their already massive highways.
As ever, this is just me talking.
i should care more about my country and life. if im not in america i can not 100% understand how it is over ther just by reading news or online.
It’s a different situation than elsewhere, but it’s important to try to understand because these problems will, I regret, continue to spread. America is still a cultural exporter for now, and that includes the insane situation we’ve come to.
Imagine if, in your country, there was a civil war started by racists over 150 years ago and even though they lost their leaders were allowed to live and hold office, and they were given plenty of room to tell a fake version of events, erect monuments, and fly the flag of rebellion.
That is only a thin slice of one part of what’s been going on in the states. If ever your country deals with traitors, I hope you see them hanged. Letting them live will kill your country sooner or later.
i dont care about the downvotes. im happy i didnt get banned or can still comment unlike on reddit.
makes sense
And what exactly does extreme DEI look like?
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity_and_inclusion