Who cares about all the people he’ll hurt along the way amiright? ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

  • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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    4 days ago

    If America won’t stop being imperialist, I’ll settle for them being incompetently imperialist thank you.

    It would seem ‘incompetently imperialist’ hurts more people.

    • segabased@lemmy.zip
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      2 days ago

      I feel like people are forgetting fascist countries become problems for every country.

      They’re also forgetting whatever solidifies under trump will outlast him, so whatever grace the world thinks they have with Trump’s “incompetence” will soon be replaced by competence. Doesn’t matter if they can trick Americans into liking them, voting won’t be a thing. World domination is one hundred percent the goal. Look at how much they’re already influencing European fascist parties.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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      4 days ago

      Who? As far as I know the only things Trump has done that appreciably hurt non-Americans and aren’t American business as usual (so other than funding Israel and bombing Yemen) are cutting aid for Ukraine and tariffs, neither of which are imperialist actions (even if the former is vile and the latter is just fucking stupid).

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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        4 days ago

        Who? As far as I know the only things Trump has done that appreciably hurt non-Americans and aren’t American business as usual

        Abolishing USAID, destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries, revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue, support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen)…

        And we’re not even a third of the way through the first fucking year of this administration.

        are cutting aid for Ukraine and tariffs, neither of which are imperialist actions (even if the former is vile and the latter is just fucking stupid).

        Fucking what? How the fuck is attempting to use economic power to extract concessions from smaller countries not imperialist? For that matter, how is attempting to assist the takeover of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in the name of some fuckwadded power politics interpretation of international affairs not imperialist?

        We’re sitting here with a projected death toll in the literal millions (yes, millions of non-Americans, as lowly American civilians don’t matter) three fucking months into this administration, with further immediate and serious threats to multiple countries.

        Maybe killing the American Empire through fucking fascism will not result in an ideal outcome for the world?

        Just a fucking thought.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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          4 days ago

          Abolishing USAID, destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries, revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue, support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen)…

          Okay that’s fair. I still don’t see any imperialist actions (words don’t count) here.

          Fucking what? How the fuck is attempting to use economic power to extract concessions from smaller countries not imperialist?

          Okay fair enough again. It doesn’t seem to be all that effective, but it is imperialist.

          For that matter, how is attempting to assist the takeover of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in the name of some fuckwadded power politics interpretation of international affairs not imperialist?

          I mean Trump’s support for the far right in the democratic West is shaping up to be more of a hindrance than a benefit so with that view it’s a win for anti-imperialism if anything.

          We’re sitting here with a projected death toll in the literal millions (yes, millions of non-Americans, as lowly American civilians don’t matter) three fucking months into this administration, with further immediate and serious threats to multiple countries.

          So about the same as the war on terror then. Or, adjusted for population, the Vietnam war. I haven’t looked at American intervention in South Africa, but it’s probably similar. Also that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere. You also now have Israel (AKA America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier) trying to restart the goddamn Syrian civil war. I don’t disagree that fascism in America will do great amounts of harm to a lot of people, but you seem to be underestimating just how much harm America does already.

          Maybe killing the American Empire through fucking fascism will not result in an ideal outcome for the world?

          I mean yeah obviously. I said as much myself, but given how modern America seems intent on killing a few millions or so people every decade and otherwise oppressing tens or hundreds of millions, and how Americans don’t seem to give enough of a shit to do anything about that when it’s their team doing it… eh, worse trades have been made.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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            4 days ago

            Okay that’s fair. I still don’t see any imperialist actions (words don’t count) here.

            Funding doesn’t count either, I guess imperialism is only when you bomb someone, and the more you bomb someone the more imperialist it is.

            I mean Trump’s support for the far right in the democratic West is shaping up to be more of a hindrance than a benefit so with that view it’s a win for anti-imperialism if anything.

            … this the same democratic West which is having unprecedented levels of support for far-right parties?

            So about the same as the war on terror then. Or, adjusted for population, the Vietnam war.

            Yes, we’re looking at a projected death toll, just from the starting three months of fascist fuckwit policies, as some of the longest and most impactful conflicts of the post-WW2 US. One with a particularly sharp eye might note that that is a very bad start to what is likely going to be a very long regime.

            I haven’t looked at American intervention in South Africa, but it’s probably similar.

            … what.

            Also that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere. You also now have Israel (AKA America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier) trying to restart the goddamn Syrian civil war.

            Does that not count as a war? Or the aforementioned support for Israel expanding their current phase of the genocide to the West Bank? Or the support for Israeli strikes against Lebanon and continued occupation?

            Israel isn’t the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier, because Israel is only cooperative insofar as it helps Israeli aims. Israel is a kingmaker for domestic US politics ever since the evangelicals got involved as a major force, and they’ve decided to put their weight behind a fascist king which will support them as they continue to murder US citizens and journalists and sell US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it.

            I don’t disagree that fascism in America will do great amounts of harm to a lot of people, but you seem to be underestimating just how much harm America does already.

            No, I’m really not. You’re underestimating just how much harm the US will continue to do under a fascist regime. You’re cheering for the US’s international position to revert to what it was pre-WW2. Unfortunately for literally everyone, the US was still immensely imperialist before it had robust ties with other democratic states.

            What you’re cheering for is not “The US will do fewer horrible things!”, it’s “The US will continue to do horrible things, but what good we do will now be cancelled.” Subsidizing the defence of democratic European states? Already fucking canceled. Supporting free journalism? Already cancelled. Humanitarian aid to literal millions of people? Already cancelled. Mutual economic agreements? Already cancelled. Contributions to technologies with applications for the public good? Already cancelled. And this is just the fucking start of it.

            But if you think “Europe no longer likes us :(” will stop a fascist regime from bombing Iran or Syria or the Ivory Coast or fucking Peru, you’ve got another thing coming.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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              4 days ago

              Funding doesn’t count either, I guess imperialism is only when you bomb someone, and the more you bomb someone the more imperialist it is.

              No, funding absolutely does, but your list didn’t include funding anything.

              … this the same democratic West which is having unprecedented levels of support for far-right parties?

              Yes, exactly that democratic West. Trump is a hindrance for the European far-right, not a boon.

              Yes, we’re looking at a projected death toll, just from the starting three months of fascist fuckwit policies, as some of the longest and most impactful conflicts of the post-WW2 US. One with a particularly sharp eye might note that that is a very bad start to what is likely going to be a very long regime.

              Again, that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere.

              Does that not count as a war? Or the aforementioned support for Israel expanding their current phase of the genocide to the West Bank? Or the support for Israeli strikes against Lebanon and continued occupation?

              Yes, this is exactly the business as usual that America losing clout with the NATO-aligned West is going to reduce. Israel can only act with impunity because Europe won’t challenge it, again because of American influence (otherwise Europe has literally nothing to gain out of supporting Israel). Remember that Israel’s largest trading partner is the EU, not America.

              Israel is a kingmaker for domestic US politics ever since the evangelicals got involved as a major force, and they’ve decided to put their weight behind a fascist king which will support them as they continue to murder US citizens and journalists and sell US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it.

              As opposed to all other US administrations since Reagan who have materially opposed or punished Israel for murdering US citizens and journalists or selling US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it? Again, this is business as usual.

              Unfortunately for literally everyone, the US was still immensely imperialist before it had robust ties with other democratic states.

              Yes, but its imperialism in terms of area and impact exploded during and after the cold war.

              But if you think “Europe no longer likes us :(” will stop a fascist regime from bombing Iran or Syria or the Ivory Coast or fucking Peru, you’ve got another thing coming.

              “Europe no longer likes us :(” won’t stop them, but European sanctions might.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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                4 days ago

                No, funding absolutely does, but your list didn’t include funding anything.

                Abolishing USAID (funding), destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries (funding), revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues) (explicitly funding), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue (causing by revocation of funding), support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross) (funding), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen) (funding)

                You uh

                you sure about that

                Yes, exactly that democratic West. Trump is a hindrance for the European far-right, not a boon.

                That seems an extremely curious conclusion to reach considering the surge in support for the far-right since the start of this year. One might even suspect it of being motivated reasoning.

                Again, that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere.

                … do you think that the death toll won’t increase until he starts a war?

                It’ll increase with whatever the next fascist fuckwit policy is, and the administration is far from finished. Like holy shit, c’mon. Three months is not the end of the fucking race. We have, at minimum, another 45 fucking months of new and exciting fascist policies which will kill people.

                Yes, this is exactly the business as usual that America losing clout with the NATO-aligned West is going to reduce.

                Jesus fucking Christ.

                Israel can only act with impunity because Europe won’t challenge it,

                Oh yes, as we all know, there are no other genocidal hypermilitarized states in the world that Europe doesn’t challenge. Europe, happily, is out there playing world police for any state that isn’t protected by the US.

                again because of American influence (otherwise Europe has literally nothing to gain out of supporting Israel).

                Europe also has nothing to gain out of supporting Russia, yet there remains significant demographics which are full-throated in their support for Russia.

                Maybe reducing everything to materialist analysis is incredibly fucking blinkered?

                Remember that Israel’s largest trading partner is the EU, not America.

                “Europe no longer likes us :(” won’t stop them, but European sanctions might.

                Okay? So is Europe willing to hurt itself economically to punish Israel and the US? Europe’s morals are, of course, super strong; that’s why we go for an idealist analysis for Europe but a materialist analysis for everywhere else in the world? I’m sure European countries aren’t struggling with far-right agitation on both cultural and economic grounds.

                Yes, but its imperialism in terms of area and impact exploded during and after the cold war.

                “and after the Cold War”

                are you fucking stupid.

                As opposed to all other US administrations since Reagan who have materially opposed or punished Israel for murdering US citizens and journalists or selling US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it? Again, this is business as usual.

                I love that I can demonstrate the Trump regime going above and beyond on Israel and your response is still a “It’s business as usual!”

                Whatever, man. If you’re so fucking desperate to critically deepthroat fascism in the hopes that the American Empire will be the pure evil regime you so desire it to be (obviously, no one would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, like China or Russia or the Saudis, so when it happens to the US, everything will finally be okay in world politics 😊), far be it from me to stop you.

                • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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                  4 days ago

                  You uh

                  you sure about that

                  Yes? Your list included cutting funding, but I’m not seeing anyone being funded here other than Israel (business as usual). Well you also mention the European far-right, but while I don’t know much about their relationship with MAGA other than that it exists I doubt National Rally or AfD are getting American tax money.

                  That seems an extremely curious conclusion to reach considering the surge in support for the far-right since the start of this year. One might even suspect it of being motivated reasoning.

                  Huh? What surge? I could be missing something, but I’ve only heard of European far-right parties trying to distance themselves from Trump and the Trump rampage losing Canada’s Conservatives a near-guaranteed majority.

                  It’ll increase with whatever the next fascist fuckwit policy is, and the administration is far from finished. Like holy shit, c’mon. Three months is not the end of the fucking race. We have, at minimum, another 45 fucking months of new and exciting fascist policies which will kill people.

                  Yeah probably, but how is he going to kill more on-Americans than he already did and is by cutting foreign aid? There’s only so much you can do to kill people outside your country without going to war.

                  Oh yes, as we all know, there are no other genocidal hypermilitarized states in the world that Europe doesn’t challenge. Europe, happily, is out there playing world police for any state that isn’t protected by the US.

                  I can’t think of any genocidal hypermilitarized state that Europe isn’t at odds with other than Israel. However, even if there was, the Middle East is Europe’s backyard and would be their sphere of influence if it wasn’t already claimed by America, so they want it to be stable because when it’s not stable refugees flood Europe. Well, more accurately Europe feels like it’s being flooded with immigrants but that’s neither here nor there.

                  “and after the Cold War”

                  are you fucking stupid.

                  Something something war on terror.

                  I love that I can demonstrate the Trump regime going above and beyond on Israel and your response is still a “It’s business as usual!”

                  He goes above and beyond on Israel rhetoric, and frankly neither I nor anybody else give a shit about what the US government has to say about Israel. Call me when he actually does something more than what Biden already did.

                  (obviously, no one would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, like China or Russia or the Saudis, so when it happens to the US, everything will finally be okay in world politics 😊), far be it from me to stop you.

                  I mean, plenty of people would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, but fortunately Trump has made it a point to actively antagonize his closest and most powerful allies so there’s not much reason to worry about that possibility. No ally Trump can possibly make would make up for the hole left by Europe and Canada.

                  • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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                    4 days ago

                    Yes? Your list included cutting funding, but I’m not seeing anyone being funded here other than Israel (business as usual). Well you also mention the European far-right, but I don’t know much about their relationship with MAGA other than that it exists I doubt National Rally or AfD are getting American tax money.

                    So if you cut funding to exercise imperialist aims, it’s not imperialism. Great. Fucking fantastic. Only increasing funding counts. Like some sort of fucked up court of law insisting on some loophole.

                    Huh? What surge? I could be missing something, but I’ve only heard of European far-right parties trying to distance themselves from Trump and the Trump rampage losing Canada’s Conservatives a near-guaranteed majority.

                    Are you not paying attention at all

                    https://europeannewsroom.com/far-right-rise-what-does-the-extremist-surge-mean-for-the-eu

                    Yeah probably, but how is he going to kill more on-Americans than he already did and is by cutting foreign aid? There’s only so much you can do to kill people outside your country without going to war.

                    Jesus fucking Christ, do you have no conception of how powerful countries interact with others on the international stage? Starvation by sanctions, revocation of medical cooperation, blocking international orgs, financial sabotage, coups, intelligence sharing or restriction, propaganda and outright support of fascist factions in democratic nations, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

                    Funny how you have a full understanding of the myriad ways which America enables Israel, outside of just funding, and then completely fucking forget about it when considering what America could offer to other genocidal states. Jesus fucking Christ.

                    I can’t think of any genocidal hypermilitarized state that Europe isn’t at odds with other than Israel.

                    “At odds with”

                    You uh, wanna remind me what genocidal hypermilitarized state Europe is meaningfully challenging?

                    However, even if there was, the Middle East is Europe’s backyard and would be their sphere of influence if it wasn’t already claimed by America, so they want it to be stable because when it’s not stable refugees flood Europe. Well, more accurately Europe feels like it’s being flooded with immigrants but that’s neither here nor there.

                    Oh, great, wherein even the supposed leftists are parroting great power politics. Jesus fucking Christ.

                    Something something war on terror.

                    ‘Something something’ is fucking right. If you think the war on terror compares to even a single decade of the Cold War, you’re out of your fucking gourd.

                    He goes above and beyond on Israel rhetoric, and frankly neither I nor anybody else give a shit about what the US government has to say about Israel. Call me when he actually does something more than what Biden already did.

                    “Rhetoric won’t influence Israeli fascism, but European rhetoric will totally reduce the effect on American fascism!”

                    That being said, it’s so fucking easy Jesus Christ

                    Welcome to month 3 of our 48 month fascism celebration.

                    I mean, plenty of people would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, but fortunately Trump has made it a point to actively antagonize his closest and most powerful allies so there’s not much reason to worry about that possibility. No ally Trump can possibly make would make up for the hole left by Europe and Canada.

                    Sure there is. Russia et co. The alignment is already moving that way. When more European countries join the far-right parade, they’ll join in too. Won’t it be wonderful?

                    So glad that fascism is collapsing the “American Empire”, now we can have a truly multipolar far-right world.

      • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        4 days ago

        To be fair , we’re only at the first phase of fascist takeover. Eventually they’ll look outwards as they’ve already started signalling with Canada, Panama and Greenland.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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          That’s true in the short term (or maybe not; they have enough internal “enemies” to last them for years), but in the medium to long term their ability to project power will be too degraded for them to amount to much on the world stage. Absolutely sucks for Canada and Greenland, but given the amount of evil America supports worldwide from their position as hegemonic superpower it’s likely still a reduction in overall imperialism in the world.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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              4 days ago

              I don’t think so. Given how spineless modern Europe in general is they’ll probably not fight the US over Greenland. I could see Europe supporting Canada like they are Ukraine in the case of a US-Canada war, but that’s about it.