https://lemmy.ml/comment/16125064
Starring: blindbunny, BrainInABox and of course, the one and only, Cowbee!
Never, under any circumstances, use the phrase “you people” unless you’re in the mood for everyone in the universe to act like you just lost the argument.
Solid advice. It can be completely benign, but people will still pounce on it for an “easy win”.
You people make some good points.
Imagine not being able to tell the difference between “I don’t believe half of their users are trans” and “I don’t believe in their users being trans”.
Demographics isn’t transphobic. Using trans people as a shield from criticism is.
EDIT: I looked over the October survey. The graphs aren’t the cleanest but the data is there: 15% of all asked identified as trans, with another 9% as trans non-binary. A sample size of 600 to the 2300 monthly users is also really good, so the data ought to be very representative.
Thanks for bringing this up, Cowbee has been banned.
That guy is so annoying with his faux-neutrality/naivety. What a phony, good riddance.
Please look at my very comprehensive “intro to leftism” reading list which is entirely comprised of ML essays and makes no attempt at contextualizing these works within broader leftist philosophy.
It seems unlikely that half of their users would be transgender, given that transgender people make up roughly .5% of the overall population; gay people (gay men + lesbians) make up roughly 4.5-5% of the overall population the last time I looked at demographics. All of the LGBTQ+ people together make up about 6% of the total population in the US.
These numbers might have changed somewhat in the last year or two since I last check surveys, but it’s not likely that it’s changed enough to move the numbers sharply.
I know that there was some investigative reporting in my state a few months ago trying to figure out how many minors would be affected by a state-level ban on insurance covering gender-affirming care for minors, and the number was in in the very low double digits. The same kind of numbers of athletes would be affected by bans on ‘biological males’ competing in womens’ sports.
I’m just saying that it just doesn’t seem very likely that an instance with thousands of users would have that kind of demographics, esp. when you consider that Hexbear broadly has a monolithic political identity.
I’m just saying that it just doesn’t seem very likely that an instance with thousands of users would have that kind of demographics, esp. when you consider that Hexbear broadly has a monolithic political identity.
Comrade just learned what an intersectional identity group is
I think that you might misunderstand. Transgender people are already a very, very small minority. The number of people that are in favor of authoritarian communism is also quite low (certainly in the US, at least). Even if you assume that, say, 50% of all trans people are supportive of authoritarian communism, that’s still an incredibly tiny number.
I can’t say that I know a ton of transgender people, but the ones that I’ve personally known have trended well into anarchism, because they recognize the risk of allowing anyone to control their body other than themselves.
I mean I could believe it about an arbitrary thing over a general populace. I mean like a gay bar is likely to have like 90% gay people in it. And its not like the federation is huge and it tends to attract out groups.
But it is not as if the instance advertises itself as a place specifically for trans people.
A gay bar doesn’t have a (largely) monolithic political identity though. Sure, most gay people are going to trend more socially and fiscally liberal/left. But you’ll still find a number at any gay bar that are fairly socially and/or fiscally conservative. Log cabin Republicans, for instance. (Yeah, I think it’s dumb to kiss the asses of ppl that want to eliminate your rights, but whatever.)
I honestly have no idea why your shifting to political ideology. My point was when you take anything that is a closed type of system it will have its own identity so I could believe its makeup is whatever and no where near close to the global average is.
They’re pointing out that hexbear isn’t like a gay bar. Its not the sexual orientation that holds them together. It’s extremest political ideology (and probably significant support from the Kremlin)
The fuck with this obsession of telling people whether they are or are not trans online?
I don’t see anyone doing that in this example. Are you misinterpreting the meaning of the original statement?
“I definitely do not believe half their users are trans”
That is not the same as telling someone they aren’t trans. He’s expressing doubt about the veracity of the results of the poll, not about any particular user(s)
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community, and any amount of actual investigation would dispel those doubts.
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community
Not trusting the administrators is not an actual reason to doubt what the administrators say?
That’s just them saying that the count is off. Theyre not calling anyone not trans. If I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off? About 0.5-1.6% of people in the US identify as trans. It would be quite a feat if half of their users were trans, when the unifying ideology is communism. Of course there are more trans people with leftist views, but what percentage of leftists are trans? We don’t have that number, but the chances of it equaling out to half of any user base that isn’t specifically trans-oriented are slim.
If they were to say “50% Of our user base has blue eyes,” it wouldn’t be hateful of blue eyed people to say that number is incorrect. It’s not about he identity of the unifying quality, it’s literally just about the claim that the number is way higher than it realistically is. You’re equating the hateful desire to erase trans people with simply saying “I don’t think the numbers can be that high.” Because it’s a touchy subject. But calling into question the probability isn’t hateful. Just math.
f I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off?
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers and it was a community that was built by and for black people and you had a motivation to be blind to their minority status then… yea, it would be racist to say “I don’t believe it”
People who frequent MoG don’t want to acknowledge the trans and minority makeup of hexbear because that conflicts with their self-image of being trans allies… It has nothing to do with any factual basis of doubt of that demographic.
There is a reason: it’s that those numbers are highly improbable. That’s a very good reason to say “I don’t think you can back up your claim.” The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
That’s my first and overarching point. My secondary point is that this is a falsely touchy topic. It’s not actually touchy, but because a particular embattled group is the subject being counted, it suddenly becomes perceived as caustic. Exactly as we’re seeing with you, right now. You’re perceiving a greater injustice than what the actual situation is exhibiting.
No one is calling into question the existence and plight of trans people. It’s just that you can’t pull a number out of your ass. Just because the number is counting an oppressed minority, suddenly people will falsely jump to say, “HEY!” Even though it’s not warranted. If the number we’re counting anything else, they wouldn’t be coming for the existence X, Y, or Z. If the person said “I have 2,000 carrots at my house” and another said, “that’s highly unlikely,” that person wouldn’t have anything against carrots. See what I’m saying,
There is no one coming after trans people. This person is coming at another person for making up a number. Simple as.
Third, actually, the original person is standing up for trans people because the hexbear user is throwing trans people in front of the actual subject of the attack: hexbear users. So you’re def angry at the wrong person.
The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
“I don’t believe you’re trans, because trans people are exceedingly rare, and the burden of proof is on you for having pulled your self-identity out of your ass lmao”
It’s incredibly transphobic to assume those who self-report to be in a targeted minority are lying for some rhetorical benefit. Nobody wants to be subject to the harassment that comes with being gender non-binary, not even to score some hypothetical internet points.
That’s wholly mischaracterizing the discussion.
“Half is X.”
Based on what?
“How dare you be so hateful!”
It’s a ridiculous argument. Throwing “transphobe” onto things that just happen to pertain to transgendered people, regardless of what’s actually being discussed, hurts the community way more than saying a claimed percentage is probably inaccurate. Way more.
This is the Israeli defense: anything that they don’t want to hear, they call antisemitic. Because it’s easier than having an argument and immediately puts the accused on their back foot.
But, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, that tactic ends up hurting Semitic people way more than whatever was being dismissed by Israel. That attitude is far more harmful to the conversation than engaging with the factual basis of the conversation.
Does changing the framing in that way help you see what I’m saying?
Fuck transphobia. I want the trans community to flourish and to be happy and free. But throwing the entire community in front of yourself in a personal argument in order to use “you’re transphobic” as a cudgel in a convo that otherwise isn’t about the actual trans community hurts the whole community way, way more. Because idiots will use that kind of shit as an excuse to hate the whole community—it’s basically asking for generalizing because you introduced the concept into the conversation. Just like idiots on the left have taken to antisemitism in a misconceived attempt at defending the Palestinian people, idiots will absolutely pick up the ball of likening an individual to the whole trans community.
I’m not your enemy here. I’m arguing for the trans community. We are having a difference of understanding but we both think we’re arguing for the same side. See what I’m trying to say?
Literally the only place I have ever experienced transphobia on Lemmy was from a hexbear, who called me a chaser for saying that my ex was a trans woman.
so you’re telling me that you used to free dive in the the deep part of the Mediterranean? that’s thalassophobic /s
