Unfortunately it does seem increasingly like the Ukraine government has used the war as an excuse to tighten its grip on power and tamp down on democracy. I hope these changes can be reversed but I’m not overly optimistic.
That doesn’t mean a Russian puppet government would be any better though.
To be fair, it is hard to hold a proper democratic election with part of a country occupied. Either you hold an election in which people in those areas cant vote and while risking division during a time of crisis, or you dont hold an election and in doing so risk democratic backsliding. Im not really sure that there’s a good answer to that situation
You know what created the situation where Ukraine had to pause elections? Russia’s invasion. You know when elections will resume in Ukraine? When Russia fucks off.
What a pointless comment. I’m not blaming them for being invaded, that’s absurd. They are responsible for their own actions. No more, no less. Why do you think the invasion means the Ukrainian government no longer has agency in the territories it controls?
I disagree. Ukraine does not have direct control over those territories. So it does not seem a major issue that people there cannot vote for a government that does not govern them.
If Ukraine is able to retake these territories then they can allow people to vote in the next election. If Ukraine retains or expands its democratic ideals then it would only be a short period where they would be controlled by a government they did not vote for.
I could see a case for postponing elections if the country was in such a total state of disarray that it was not practical to hold them. But it’s clear that this is not the case outside of the eastern front lines and occupied territories.
As we can see, not holding elections is also creating propaganda for Russia and its defenders. I don’t think this is a major problem enough to deny people a voice in decision-making.
Because I have a compulsion to correct misinformation and reply back to people who are spreading it. I have criticized Russia many times but people here agree and don’t need to hear that.
In fact I did state that I think a Russian government would be worse but since no one contested that there was simply no need to discuss it further. What else is there to say? Putin bad. Kremlin bad. Russian Imperialism bad. That’s all. I’m not going to get 100 nationalistic, authoritarian fools jumping down my throat about this statement so there won’t be any need to say more.
How has it tightened its grip on power? I’m genuinely asking, I don’t know.
Lincoln did the same thing, for what it’s worth, arresting people who published secessionist newspapers and detaining civilians without due process who he said were “dangerous to the public safety.” What he said about it was that, in war people get murdered on a massive scale, property gets stolen, cities burn, all the rules go out the window. If that’s what we’re doing, we might as well do it and try to win.
“Are all the laws but one to go unexecuted, and the Government itself go to pieces lest that one be violated? Even in such a case, would not the official oath be broken if the Government should be overthrown when it was believed that disregarding the single law would tend to preserve it?”
I’m not saying I agree as pertains to Ukraine. Like I said I really don’t know what has been happening with them. Ukraine has famously had a pretty corrupt government as all the post-Soviet states tended to do, and I am in favor of the upsetting story of them trying to replace it with something decent, all the while at the mercy of massive powers on all sides which don’t have their best interests at heart.
War obviously poses challenges and some changes may be necessary but Lincoln did hold elections during the civil war and I believe it is perhaps the most important time for people’s voices to be heard, despite the challenges. The war is primarily confined to eastern Ukraine so I see no practical reason elections could not be held. Other than that they may not be in the interests of ruling powers.
Power always corrupts and wartime powers are no different.
War is not confined to eastern regions, it never was, even in 2014.
Elections and freedom of speech, also freedom of movement, freedom of association and a lot of other freedoms are suspended for the duration of martial law being in effect, that’s part of the law. Changes to constitution, referendums, strikes are prohibited as well. Law #389-vii (may 12, 2015) itself is powered by Constitution (article 64 part 2 mentions what freedoms can’t be suspended during martial law). All previous iterations of the law starting from 2000, I think, have ± same conditions and change mostly in wording.
Civil war was civil as in not against outside threat and it wasn’t an existential threat. Stated r*ssian goals include genocide.
I never said it was completely confined there, just primarily. I think contextually it should be clear that what I mean is that war has not affected the government or society away from the front so dramatically that elections could not be held.
I am aware of the law. But I think the law is wrong. Ukraine has never been a particularly democratic country so its laws were a product of that context, even before the war. They open the door to autocracy and should be changed.
Your last point isn’t relevant. They could and still should hold elections regardless of Russias intentions which they have no ability to bring about outside of their area of control.
You do understand law as a concept? Especially constitution as a basic law that can’t be violated unless every other law becomes invalid?
As for not being particularly democratic that’s either extremely uninformed or completely detached view. I would love to hear what is not particularly democratic about ukrainian state.
As for president and safety council being autocratic, and holding dictatorial power, that is the whole point of martial law and any kind of emergency powers that granted to elected or not elected officials during emergency.
I acknowledge that laws exist. I don’t respect or follow the bad ones. The laws were written, as in many countries, to prevent self governance by the people. This is always and everywhere the greatest fear of the powerful.
Your comment is self-contradictory. A dictatorship that governs with emergency powers and no elections is in no way democratic.
It’s clear from your comment that you think this kind of dictatorship is a good idea. I think you should defend this idea instead of acting confused about what I mean when you clearly understand what I’m talking about here.
Unfortunately it does seem increasingly like the Ukraine government has used the war as an excuse to tighten its grip on power and tamp down on democracy. I hope these changes can be reversed but I’m not overly optimistic.
That doesn’t mean a Russian puppet government would be any better though.
To be fair, it is hard to hold a proper democratic election with part of a country occupied. Either you hold an election in which people in those areas cant vote and while risking division during a time of crisis, or you dont hold an election and in doing so risk democratic backsliding. Im not really sure that there’s a good answer to that situation
Not only is it “hard,” it is spelled out in the UA constitution that this is what happens when there’s a war going on in Ukraine.
Human rights and democracy are above the law. If the law contradicts them, then the law is wrong.
You know what created the situation where Ukraine had to pause elections? Russia’s invasion. You know when elections will resume in Ukraine? When Russia fucks off.
But, sure, blame Ukraine for that.
What a pointless comment. I’m not blaming them for being invaded, that’s absurd. They are responsible for their own actions. No more, no less. Why do you think the invasion means the Ukrainian government no longer has agency in the territories it controls?
What’s the Kremlin like?
It’s an awful, murderous, autocratic institution. What’s the CIA like?
what “own actions” are they responsible for?
getting shot at???
Maybe if you think about it you can figure out what I’m talking about using something called context.
I disagree. Ukraine does not have direct control over those territories. So it does not seem a major issue that people there cannot vote for a government that does not govern them.
If Ukraine is able to retake these territories then they can allow people to vote in the next election. If Ukraine retains or expands its democratic ideals then it would only be a short period where they would be controlled by a government they did not vote for.
I could see a case for postponing elections if the country was in such a total state of disarray that it was not practical to hold them. But it’s clear that this is not the case outside of the eastern front lines and occupied territories.
But doing so will just give propaganda fodder for the occupying country
“See, your country doesn’t care about you, come to our side blah blah blah”
It’s a tight rope to walk for sure, but I haven’t seen anything out of Ukraine to suggest they’ve fallen off it
As we can see, not holding elections is also creating propaganda for Russia and its defenders. I don’t think this is a major problem enough to deny people a voice in decision-making.
Propagandists gonna propagandize regardless. Stop blaming the victims.
Yeah that was my point… Nobody is blaming the victims but you’re saying they shouldn’t have a voice in their own government.
Why don’t you spend all this energy you’re putting into ignorant takes into criticizing the actual problem and aggressors here - Russia
Because I have a compulsion to correct misinformation and reply back to people who are spreading it. I have criticized Russia many times but people here agree and don’t need to hear that.
In fact I did state that I think a Russian government would be worse but since no one contested that there was simply no need to discuss it further. What else is there to say? Putin bad. Kremlin bad. Russian Imperialism bad. That’s all. I’m not going to get 100 nationalistic, authoritarian fools jumping down my throat about this statement so there won’t be any need to say more.
How has it tightened its grip on power? I’m genuinely asking, I don’t know.
Lincoln did the same thing, for what it’s worth, arresting people who published secessionist newspapers and detaining civilians without due process who he said were “dangerous to the public safety.” What he said about it was that, in war people get murdered on a massive scale, property gets stolen, cities burn, all the rules go out the window. If that’s what we’re doing, we might as well do it and try to win.
I’m not saying I agree as pertains to Ukraine. Like I said I really don’t know what has been happening with them. Ukraine has famously had a pretty corrupt government as all the post-Soviet states tended to do, and I am in favor of the upsetting story of them trying to replace it with something decent, all the while at the mercy of massive powers on all sides which don’t have their best interests at heart.
Canceled elections and tamping down freedom of speech: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/18/world/europe/ukraine-press-freedom.html
War obviously poses challenges and some changes may be necessary but Lincoln did hold elections during the civil war and I believe it is perhaps the most important time for people’s voices to be heard, despite the challenges. The war is primarily confined to eastern Ukraine so I see no practical reason elections could not be held. Other than that they may not be in the interests of ruling powers.
Power always corrupts and wartime powers are no different.
I never said it was completely confined there, just primarily. I think contextually it should be clear that what I mean is that war has not affected the government or society away from the front so dramatically that elections could not be held.
I am aware of the law. But I think the law is wrong. Ukraine has never been a particularly democratic country so its laws were a product of that context, even before the war. They open the door to autocracy and should be changed.
Your last point isn’t relevant. They could and still should hold elections regardless of Russias intentions which they have no ability to bring about outside of their area of control.
You do understand law as a concept? Especially constitution as a basic law that can’t be violated unless every other law becomes invalid?
As for not being particularly democratic that’s either extremely uninformed or completely detached view. I would love to hear what is not particularly democratic about ukrainian state.
As for president and safety council being autocratic, and holding dictatorial power, that is the whole point of martial law and any kind of emergency powers that granted to elected or not elected officials during emergency.
I acknowledge that laws exist. I don’t respect or follow the bad ones. The laws were written, as in many countries, to prevent self governance by the people. This is always and everywhere the greatest fear of the powerful.
Your comment is self-contradictory. A dictatorship that governs with emergency powers and no elections is in no way democratic.
It’s clear from your comment that you think this kind of dictatorship is a good idea. I think you should defend this idea instead of acting confused about what I mean when you clearly understand what I’m talking about here.